|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 21, 2017 5:53:24 GMT
Army: The Windigo
General: Zephaniah Harper- Scornet Maestro (I figure it's okay because, even though it's a boss, the Maestro is pretty pathetic on its own).
Location: Scornet Maestro Arena
Day: 0
Log: 0
Troops (Total: 55)
Ordinary (Subtotal: 50)
20 Scornets (Fast, offensive unit. Good for troop v. troop battles. Stingers do okay damage, and great damage to unarmored troops.)
20 Winged Pikmin (Not as fast as the Scornets, nor do they do as much damage, though their blunt-force attacks are less hindered by armor. What they lack in speed, they make up for with the ability to carry an absolutely STUPID weight [for their size] while still remaining airborne. I'd figure that 200 of them could physically lift and carry your average Iron tank.)
10 Hook-bats (Big hooked tail, fast and agile in combat. Their main draws, however, are that they can fly in both absolute darkness and absolute silence.)
Special (Subtotal: 5)
2 Puffy Blowhogs (Their huge gusts of wind can flip vehicles, knock down light walls [not that they couldn't just float over], and scatter formations of ground troops. Also able to carry a pretty decent weight. Their main weakness is an inability to directly deal damage.)
1 Withering Blowhogs (In addition to withering plant life, their breath can corrode metal, and it generally makes troops not function very well, although, again, they can't actually hurt troops directly- these ones can't even do more than knock them down.)
2 Careening Dirigibug (Yep, they're the Bomb Squad. Unlimited ammo, but they can use any better stuff if it's available.)
Buildings: N/A
Base Defences:
-Natural Terrain Advantage. (This base is almost impossible to access from the ground.)
Resources:
140 Petals
200 Iron
Projects:
1. Gather 150 Iron. 0/4
2. Gather 150 Iron. 0/4
3. Build a PGC. -400 Iron, -80 Petals, 0/40 days
4. Build a PGC. -400 Iron, -80 Petals, 0/40 days
5. Gather 250 Aluminum. 0/12
6. Gather 100 Groinkium. 0/10
Log; *has nothing*
[rounding out my attempt to have an army dedicated to each of the elements- I'll only need Earth after this!]
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 21, 2017 6:15:07 GMT
some of the ordinary units seem a bit OP... I mean, it takes 11 purple Pikmin to lift a piece of a globe, and a tank usually ways tons.... same thing with the puffy blow hogs. I can understand them blowing over pretty basic and poorly made walls, or throwing aircraft off course, but knocking over your typical combat vehicle is a bit ridiculous, you've got to remember that Iron is heavier than steel, and a typical tank has inches upon inches of armor. Even a lighter vehicle made with heavy material can't easily be knocked over... a car weighs tons and requires about 31m/second wind speed to even move.
Other than that, most of your units have high speed, decent strength/combat power but low durability, other than the drigibugs, am I correct?
|
|
|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 21, 2017 6:52:37 GMT
Well, you have to remember that that half a globe was a solid mass of... whatever globes are made of. Fiberglass? Ceramic? I think it was ceramic. But what I was basing that figure on was their ability to lift an apple with 10 Pikmin. Because, although the shape might be different, I figured that that was a pretty good volume for your average tank. Now, say what you will about having thick plating, but a tank, fundamentally has to be hollow- mostly hollow, even. An apple is a solid mass. And Iron is only about 7 or 8 times denser than water (the main component of apples). So, I figured that, overall a tank would be about 5x harder to lift than an apple. Thus, 50 Pikmin.
That said, I agree about the Blowhogs, to an extent. Let's tone that down to "flimsy walls" (say, a wooden wall that's already been beaten up a decent bit), and "can flip over light vehicles (say, a dune buggy)". But, on the subject of wind speeds, just how fast do you think Blowhogs have to shoot air to throw Pikmin around willy-nilly like they do?
And about my themes, yes the ordinaries are fast, strong, and frail. But actually, it appears that all of the specials are pretty slow and blimp-like. I mean, Leaf Pikmin (maybe not Purples) can outrun Blowhogs, and just about anything can outrun a Careening Dirigibug moving under its own power (though I'd imagine the Puffy's air currents could give those guys a boost).
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 21, 2017 10:46:32 GMT
True, but the typical light tank weighs around 23 tonnes.
Also imagine that you've got 50 pink Pikmin... took you what, 5 days to get, with no material or monetary costs... then you've got a tank, which took 20 days to get, plus 100+ Itons and the money? Now it's been 20 days and you potentially have enough power to pick up and throw 4 tanks and I only have one tank?
I know I said we wouldent focus on gameplay so much, but that we've got to keep things balanced out for the sake of everyone... even that's a bit rediculous...
|
|
|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 21, 2017 15:28:33 GMT
And how much do you think an apple the size of, if not a house, then at least a decent-sized room, weighs?
That second one is a significantly better point- lets rebalance to fit that. The tank took you 20 days, so it should take that many day's worth of Pikmin (because every Pikmin I'm getting is just one more troop that could be a better fighter on its own). Let's call it 200 Pikmin.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 22, 2017 0:24:02 GMT
It's probably be best if they couldent carry it to far. Your average apple clocks in at about 100 grams or 0.33 pounds. A single gram of iron actaully weighs more, about 0.36 pounds.
That means a single tank, if it where similar to an apple in mass, would probably weigh in at about thirty+ pounds in Pikmin measurements.
It takes 15 Pikmin to carry an apple, multiply by three and it takes forty five Pikmin to carry about a pound. Now multiply by thirty... and it takes approx 1350 Pikmin to carry a tank made of iron if it where the same mass as an apple.
That's heavier than the Doomsday Apparatus, which took 100 purple Pikmin to carry.
|
|
|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 22, 2017 4:22:00 GMT
There were so many terminology errors there that it took me a minute to figure out what you meant. (A "gram" of iron weighs the same as a "gram" of anything else- that's the definition of a gram! You were thinking of a unit of volume.) Now that I understand, how about a compromise- an average Iron tank takes as many hypothetical Winged Pikmin as the Doomsdy Apparatus (1,000). Any more and they start to get kind of useless- by that standard, it takes 10 Winged Pikmin to carry a single unit of Iron.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 22, 2017 21:30:01 GMT
There were so many terminology errors there that it took me a minute to figure out what you meant. (A "gram" of iron weighs the same as a "gram" of anything else- that's the definition of a gram! You were thinking of a unit of volume.) Now that I understand, how about a compromise- an average Iron tank takes as many hypothetical Winged Pikmin as the Doomsdy Apparatus (1,000). Any more and they start to get kind of useless- by that standard, it takes 10 Winged Pikmin to carry a single unit of Iron. Negative. Your thinking of a pound. A gram is a unit of mass . A gram of apples has the same mass as a gram of Iron. A gram of Iron, however, is heavier than a gram of apples in terms of weight. A gram is not weight. A unit of Volume is a liter. A gram unto itself cannot be "Heavy" period because it is not a measurment of weight... |
|
|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 23, 2017 0:15:41 GMT
I'm quite sure it isn't. The only difference between mass and weight is acceleration: F = m*a, where F is force (the equivalent of weight- you can have pounds of force, for instance), m is the mass (in grams, kilograms, whatever the imperial unit of mass is), and a is acceleration. In this case, that's the acceleration due to gravity- 9.8 meters/second squared, or about 32 feet/second squared. If two objects have the same mass, and are on the same planet (so that the acceleration due to gravity is the same), they have the same weight. Now, the denser object may be smaller (fewer liters [or centimeters cubed] of volume), but that doesn't change anything about how "heavy" something is.
But physics aside, can we agree on 10 Winged Pikmin per unit of Iron [with lighter or heavier materials taking fewer or more, respectively] something is made of? (So a tank made of 100 Iron takes 1,000 Winged Pikmin to lift, with the restriction that they can only carry it, in a single burst, about as far as the length of an in-game area.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 23, 2017 0:48:56 GMT
Either way, an iron tank still proved to be heavier. A gram of Iron takes up less space than, say a gram of feathers. It would take a lot less feathers than it would iron to make a tank. I will admit that I was wrong about that lol. It would still, with that take well over a thousand Pikmin to lift an iron tank the size of an apple, even at the same size an iron tank would have more weight.
Yeah but not for more than few seconds. The drop could cause confusion or even minor damage.
|
|
|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 23, 2017 1:32:08 GMT
It really wouldn't- if the tank had the same volume as the apple- even if you just had an apple-sized ball of iron- it would take 15 (amount it takes to lift the apple) times 8 (density ratio of Iron to water [iron is 7.87 g/cm^3, water is 1.00g/cm^3]) = 120. The apple weighs 15 Pik-units, Iron is 8 times denser (that is, the same volume weighs 8 times as much), therefore it takes 15x8=120 Pik-units to lift it (where one Pik-unit is the amount a single Pikmin can lift).
Also, how are they at all useful if they can only carry it for a few seconds? What if it's not a tank, and just a bunch of resources that I'm trying to steal? Are you seriously telling me that not only do I require 1,000 Pikmin -100 day's worth of troops- just to steal a measly 100 Iron (which a 4 day project could more than cover), but that they could only barely get it out of the enemy base?
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 23, 2017 2:15:58 GMT
Negative. In fact I really didn't want you "Picking up tanks" to begin with, with a small group of ordinary troops. My whole point is that you have troops that are fairly fast but also as strong as purple Pikmin as well as airborne? (That sounds more like a special to be honest). Also according to the actual game itself, the tank would weigh around a thousand Units. The doomsday apparatus was massive, probably a little bigger than medium-light tank like the panzer three. Maybe I didn't really state it well enough at the beggining and that would be my fault. Extremely mobile units can't logically have heavy armor or weapons or even loads because they get slowed down. Not necessarily
That it would take a thousand really, to carry one hundred iron. If you want something that can carry heavy loads, get a unit that can do so with ease. Fast, agile, airborne units aren't really made to carry massive loads.
Even if all that is inapplicable pink Pikmin actaully have the exact same carry strength as an ordinary, while they may be able to stay airborne they can actaully carry no more than a red or white Pikmin...
Also the density of iron compared to the average apple is over 30 times that of the apple. Apple is about 0.24 g/cm cubed while iron is at 7.28 g/cm cubed.
I'm not saying any of this to pick on you or anything like that. But your ordinary troops already have a special advantage with their airborne capabilities and maneuverability, having them have extreme strength would be a huge unbalancing... It would be more understandable if it where purple Pikmin or a decent group of dweevils attempting to pick up a static tank, or even another war machine.
|
|
|
|
Post by pendragon71037 on Feb 23, 2017 5:51:46 GMT
I don't think I was clear either, and for that I apologize- these guys are MEANT to be my army's equivalent of Purples or Dweevils. I already have a fast, maneuverable combat unit- two, even. Why would I want three? Can they fly? Yes, and so maybe they're not quite as good at pure lifting as those others. But are they nearly as good at flying as my other units? Heck no. To use real world analogies, Scornets are fighter planes, Winged Pikmin are bombers (except in reverse- instead of carrying loads for a long time and then dropping them, they pick up huge loads and carry them away safely).
(Also, I looked at your log, and I got momentarily VERY confused, before realizing that you were counting days down from the top, instead of up from 0.)
[ive sort of given up on the apple argument at this point, but my calculations were triple what you got for average apple density. For reference, I looked it up and saw that the average mass of an apple was 74.87 grams, and the average volume was 104.5 cm cubed. First divided by second yields 0.716 g/cm^3.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Bloodmancer on Feb 23, 2017 22:31:43 GMT
Yeah, okay. So I will say that they can pick up 1 piece of iron each. They can pick up a tank but not with ease... only so many can carry it at a time and the vehicle is extremely heavy and difficult to carry while it is being operated. A bit easier to grab when it is stationary.
|
|
